What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

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Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by FrediFizzx » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:58 am

Schmelzer wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:08 am
FrediFizzx wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:52 am ...
I have written my answer into a separate thread, because I think the question how a preferred frame allows to violate the BI too much differs from the question if there are objections against a preferred frame. See here for this discussion.
I actually have no objections against a preferred frame. I'm objecting to your completely senseless notion that a Bell inequality can be "violated" or bounds exceeded.
.

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by Schmelzer » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:08 am

FrediFizzx wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:52 am ...
I have written my answer into a separate thread, because I think the question how a preferred frame allows to violate the BI too much differs from the question if there are objections against a preferred frame. See here for this discussion.
gill1109 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:48 pm The solution of a "hidden" preferred frame is mathematically available, it seems to me. It does sound "conspiratorial": nature makes us think that there is no preferred frame, Einsteins relativity is enormously successful.
The "conspiracy" argument itself is a valid one, but only as long as the theory does not explain this "conspiracy". And this explanation is given by the derivation of the EEP. It is an exact property, and follows in GLET from the action equals reaction symmetry of the Lagrange formalism, that means, from another well-understood symmetry.
gill1109 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:48 pm It seems to me the important question to ask is: does the theory of a hidden preferred frame lead to new predictions, different from the predictions of other theories? Does it lead to new physics?
Bohmian theory has not been successful. We know it is available, reproduces quantum theory. But as far as I know, it did not lead to important progress anywhere.
It did. Bell, at that time the only proponent of BM, tried to understand if one could get rid of the nonlocality of BM. The result was Bell's theorem, and it has given a lot of progress in the foundations of physics as well as in experimental physics.

Do you want more success for an interpretation which is anathema to the mainstream given that it requires a preferred frame in relativity?

I'm sure my ether interpretation of the SM

Schmelzer, I. (2009). A Condensed Matter Interpretation of SM Fermions and Gauge Fields, Found. Phys. 39(1) 73-107, resp. arxiv:0908.0591.

would lead to some new physics in the Higgs sector if some other people would participate. In fact, that it gives the three generations, the SM gauge group and all the fermion charges correctly is new physics - no other theories gives this. The SM does not count here, it is phenomenological and explains nothing. I agree that postdictions count much less than predictions. But I simply compare my results with those of the competitors (say, string theory) and can easily see that I'm much better. Not?

But, ok, my interpretation of the SM is a quite special case. In general, interpretations work indirectly. Each interpretation has weak points and strong points. Strong points are, say, compatibility with certain general principles (say, realism, causality, ...). Weak points are, say, infinities in physical things.
This makes different interpretations different research programs: One looks for better theories, those not having the weak points of the interpretations, among those theories which have the same strong points, thus, fulfill the same nice general principles as the interpretation.

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by FrediFizzx » Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:29 am

gill1109 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:53 am
FrediFizzx wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:52 am Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
Let's see your math right here and now. You can't do it because it is impossible.
Dear Fred

I will answer your challenge in the section of the forum devoted to mathematics. But not today. I'm busy making quince jelly.

Richard
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol: What the heck is wrong with you? It is mathematically impossible!
.

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by gill1109 » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:53 am

FrediFizzx wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:52 am Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
Let's see your math right here and now. You can't do it because it is impossible.
Dear Fred

I will answer your challenge in the section of the forum devoted to mathematics. But not today. I'm busy making quince jelly.

Richard

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by FrediFizzx » Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:52 am

gill1109 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:06 am
FrediFizzx wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:49 amYep, yep, typical Bell fan type fashion of avoiding the question. Let's see your math for it right here.

Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
.
If Ilja's framework reproduces conventional QM predictions then it will reproduce the Tsirelson inequality. And it then also explains why QM violates the Bell-CHSH inequality - because it will agree that QM can attain the Tsirelson bound.
Man, I am really really tired of your freakin' nonsense!!!

Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?

Let's see your math right here and now. You can't do it because it is impossible.

So, you Bell fanatics need to quit lying about it.

No Bell inequality has EVER been "violated" or had its bounds exceeded. It is just freakin' mathematically impossible. And it boggles my mind big time that smart intelligent people don't realize that.
.

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by gill1109 » Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:06 am

FrediFizzx wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:49 am
Schmelzer wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:21 pm
FrediFizzx wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:35 pm I mean come on, it is mathematically impossible. None of the Bell fanatics here can explain it. Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
With faster than light causal influences on the fundamental, quantum level it is trivial to violate them. If Alice measures in direction a, the state of Bob's particle collapses immediately into one of the corresponding eigenstates. This is explained in my popular introduction into Bell's inequality at https://ilja-schmelzer.de/realism/game.php where this possibility is named "A hidden information channel".
Yep, yep, typical Bell fan type fashion of avoiding the question. Let's see your math for it right here.

Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
.
If Ilja's framework reproduces conventional QM predictions then it will reproduce the Tsirelson inequality. And it then also explains why QM violates the Bell-CHSH inequality - because it will agree that QM can attain the Tsirelson bound.

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by FrediFizzx » Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:49 am

Schmelzer wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:21 pm
FrediFizzx wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:35 pm I mean come on, it is mathematically impossible. None of the Bell fanatics here can explain it. Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
With faster than light causal influences on the fundamental, quantum level it is trivial to violate them. If Alice measures in direction a, the state of Bob's particle collapses immediately into one of the corresponding eigenstates. This is explained in my popular introduction into Bell's inequality at https://ilja-schmelzer.de/realism/game.php where this possibility is named "A hidden information channel".
Yep, yep, typical Bell fan type fashion of avoiding the question. Let's see your math for it right here.

Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
.

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by gill1109 » Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:48 pm

The solution of a "hidden" preferred frame is mathematically available, it seems to me. It does sound "conspiratorial": nature makes us think that there is no preferred frame, Einsteins relativity is enormously successful. But then quantum theory is enormously successful and the non-local collapse of the wave function could be "real" if indeed there was a preferred frame.

It seems to me the important question to ask is: does the theory of a hidden preferred frame lead to new predictions, different from the predictions of other theories? Does it lead to new physics?

Bohmian theory has not been successful. We know it is available, reproduces quantum theory. But as far as I know, it did not lead to important progress anywhere.

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by Schmelzer » Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:21 pm

FrediFizzx wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:35 pm
Schmelzer wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:24 pm There are several ways to solve the problem created by the violation of the Bell inequalities. ...
Hmm... there is no problem there because the Bell inequalities are never ever "violated".
Indeed, those who prefer one of the first two solutions can say there is no problem at all. Moreover, what is tested and violated are not the Bell inequalities themselves but variants more appropriate for such tests.

So, instead of naming them "ways to solve the problem" it would have been more accurate to write "positions about Bell's theorem and observations of violations of Bell-like inequalities". Anyway, I think these two possibilities should be discussed in other threads.
FrediFizzx wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:35 pm I mean come on, it is mathematically impossible. None of the Bell fanatics here can explain it. Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded?
With faster than light causal influences on the fundamental, quantum level it is trivial to violate them. If Alice measures in direction a, the state of Bob's particle collapses immediately into one of the corresponding eigenstates. This is explained in my popular introduction into Bell's inequality at https://ilja-schmelzer.de/realism/game.php where this possibility is named "A hidden information channel".

Re: What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by FrediFizzx » Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:35 pm

Schmelzer wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:24 pm There are several ways to solve the problem created by the violation of the Bell inequalities. ...
Hmm... there is no problem there because the Bell inequalities are never ever "violated". I mean come on, it is mathematically impossible. None of the Bell fanatics here can explain it. Perhaps you can show a valid situation where the bounds of the inequality are exceeded? Though it looks pretty impossible to me. :D
.

What if the solution is a "hidden" preferred frame?

by Schmelzer » Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:24 pm

There are several ways to solve the problem created by the violation of the Bell inequalities.

The first one, quite popular here but rejected as nonsense by the mainstream, is to question Bell's theorem itself. The second one is to find various loopholes in the experiments which show violations of the Bell inequalities. I will ignore these two possibilities below.

The strongest, most important one in mainstream physics is to preserve Einstein causality (misnamed "locality" as if a theory with maximal speed of information transfer of 1000 c would be "nonlocal") at all costs. The costs are quite big, you have to give up realism, even in such a weak form as EPR realism, you have to weaken the notion of causality too, given that you have to reject the common cause principle. And one can reasonably ask if what remains after this - "signal causality" - is even worth to be named "causality".

But, last, and in the opinion of the mainstream also least, there is another solution - the acceptance of a "hidden" preferred frame.

My impression is that there is a very strong prejudice against this solution, even on the emotional level. I think most of us (me too) have been impressed in childhood by the popular argumentation following Einstein in favor of special relativity, against those "common sense" ideas like absolute simultaneity. And this was a positive impression - else we would have done something completely different, but not physics. So, all the elements we need for strong emotional prejudices are present: Started in childhood, strong impression, emotional importance even for the choice of profession, what else is missed here? All I can do here is to ask the reader to think about this - maybe his response is not that much rational but influenced by such emotional things?

Whatever, I think in a group discussing the foundations of physics there should be some part discussing this particular possibility: That there is a "hidden" preferred frame, and this hidden frame defines a classical notion causality (with common cause principle), some absolute contemporaneity (so that there will be a notion of realism restricted to what exists "now").

The point is that many scientist will have objections against such a preferred frame which can be easily answered - but only if there is a place to discuss them. So I think it would be useful to have some thread to discuss such all the imaginable objections against the preferred frame solution.

In this starting post I will mention two popular objections against a preferred frame: First, that it would be problematic to extend it into the domain of general relativity. This argument was correct for a quite long time, but today a generalization of the Lorentz ether interpretation to gravity is known:

Schmelzer, I. (2012). A Generalization of the Lorentz Ether to Gravity with General-Relativistic Limit. Advances in Applied Clifford Algebras 22(1), 203-242, resp. arxiv:gr-qc/0205035.

It is a different theory of gravity, but very close to the field-theoretic variant of GR. One simply introduces a gauge-breaking term into the Lagrangian which enforces the harmonic gauge. So, in the limit when this term goes to zero we obtain the Einstein equations in harmonic coordinates on a fixed background.

The second is the positivistic one that the preferred frame is not visible. But is the "hidden" preferred frame really hidden? We easily see a simple preferred frame in the global structure of our universe - the CMBR frame. And we have good reasons to believe that it becomes visible below Planck scale: GR is quantized only in its field variant on a flat background, and only as an effective field theory:

Donoghue, J.F. (1994). General relativity as an effective field theory: The leading quantum corrections. Phys Rev D 50(6), 3874-3888
Donoghue, J.F. (1996). The Quantum Theory of General Relativity at Low Energies, Helv.Phys.Acta 69, 269-275, arXiv:gr-qc/9607039

So one can expect that the theory below Planck scale may violate full relativistic symmetry (the SEP) so that the background becomes visible at least in principle for observations below Planck length.

Last but not least, if something which really exists remains unobservable this is not sufficient to reject its existence. But it creates a problem of explanation: Those who propose that the unobservable thing exists have to explain why it is unobservable. Only as long as there is no such explanation, the unobservability is a reasonable argument against its existence.

But an explanation of the Einstein Equivalence Principle (EEP) exists. The EEP has been derived for the generalized Lorentz ether in my paper mentioned above. Moreover, the derivation is quite simple:

Assume we have a completely non-relativistic theory on a Newtonian background. We assume a Lagrange formalism and translational invariance in space and time. Then we look at the Euler-Lagrange equations for the preferred background coordinates. This gives Noether conservation laws for energy and momentum. Assume that the stress-energy-momentum tensor is symmetric. (Lorentz symmetry of the background allows to prove this but is not necessary.) Then, define the "gravitational field" by this stress-energy-momentum tensor on the background:



Make a change of variables so that the gravitational field components become independent variables, and name all other fields beyond the preferred coordinates and the gravitational field "matter fields". Then the Noether conservation law becomes the harmonic coordinate condition.

So now the equation for the preferred coordinates depends only on the "gravitational field", not on any other "matter fields". Then, the action equals reaction principle tells us that the equations for the matter fields should not depend on the preferred coordinates. Thus, the EEP is proven.

What are other objections against the hypothesis of a "hidden" preferred frame?

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